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Talk:Gun
Reloading with melee Weapons will continue to reload if you start reloading before using melee attacks, for example, you can press reload with a shotgun and keep using melee attacks, the number of shells in the shotgun will keep increasing until it's full or hen you fire again. Give it a try. Glahardt 13:59, 28 November 2008 (UTC) Doesn't work now for the auto shotgun since the update--TeriffiedToxic(Check out my wikia and help ploz Its (www.darkcrusade.wikia.com)) 12:44, 8 May 2009 (UTC) It DOES work on patch 1.0.1.3, it was implented as a defence untill you reload, it's not a glitch of a bug. --SilentShadow 07:08, 10 May 2009 (UTC) headshot damage factor anyone know the exact damage factor for a headshot 4:1, etc? is it different for each infected? : It would be different for each infected, if it makes a change at all. It also seems to be different for each weapon. Any headshot from any weapon (including pistols) on a regular infected seems to kill them. Headshotting a Tank seems to have no effect at all, and headshotting a witch only seems to do a difference if it is from a shotgun. --HarrisonH 14:32, 8 December 2008 (UTC) :: thanks. i also do not understand the damages. if a pistol does 35 base damage and you need several body hits to kill a common infected, why can the hunting rifle pierce and kill multiple infected with 90 base damage? ive seen discussions of the hunting rifle killing 3-4 common infected with one shot, but 90/3 = 30. the bullet would have to pierce and not lose full damage to kill that many infected in a single shot assuming these base damages are correct. Headshotting a tank stuns it a little and slows it down--TeriffiedToxic(Check out my wikia and help ploz Its (www.darkcrusade.wikia.com)) 12:45, 8 May 2009 (UTC) It is diffrent for every weapon, only the shotgun get's a damage bonus only when headshoting a witch, hunting rifle actualy does 75 damage and not 90 (I've read it on an other page) but the reason it kills expert horde in one hit is because it's scripted to one-hit-kill them, no matter where you hit them. The hunting rifle does pierce through the horde, that's why it's usefull. If anyone sais it's shit against everything - they're wrong, it can kill more infected in one shot then a shotgun, plus it has great accuracy. Only problem is it's extremely weak against tanks and witches and does reletevly weak damage to the special infected. --SilentShadow 07:16, 10 May 2009 (UTC) damage per second/damage per clip/total damage to help users best compare the weapons, i think adding these categories would help. they are simply derived from the existing values which have already been provided on each weapon main page. damage per second = rate of fire / 60 x base damage; damage per clip = base damage x clip capacity; total damage = base damage x capacity + starting clip pistols; damage per second = 175; damage per clip = 525; total damage = infinite dual pistols; damage per second = 350; damage per clip = 1050; total damage = infinite shotgun; damage per second = 276; damage per clip = 1920; total damage = 32640 submachine gun; damage per second = 316.67; damage per clip = 950; total damage = 10070 assault rifle; damage per second = 373.33; damage per clip = 1600; total damage = 13120 auto shotgun; damage per second = 960; damage per clip = 2880; total damage = 39744 hunting rifle; damage per second = 337.5; damage per clip = 1350; total damage = 17550 i think these values are worth adding, particularly "total damage" since ammo conservation is clearly a concern of a submachine gun or assault rifle user. again, the raw values for carry capacity are already on the pages, but one does not get as strong a sense of the disparity in total damage between guns just by eyeballing a carry capacity stat. most people probably would not guess that the pump shotgun has 2.5x the total damage of the assault rifle, for instance, or that the submachine gun's total damage is only about 5 shotgun clips, or that dual pistols have more damage per clip and more damage per second than the submachine gun the submachine gun rather redundant :). Melee Weapons? Although I kinda disagree with it, some players say the game would be better with them, does anyone else agree with them? Give good ideas for weapons in your response. I personally would like either a baseball bat or a switchblade. --User:Monobrow1 :I must admit, that would be kind of cool, especially a baseball bat. I could pretend to be a Scout on Left 4 Dead! -[[User:Stigma-231|§'tigma-231']] ♠৳hаt i ɯill nəvər escaρełalk][ ] 01:52, 21 March 2009 (UTC) ::I mean, I don't hate the idea, it sounds kinda cool...but where would the creators put that into the game? Also, funny comment about the Scout :D --User:Monobrow1 :::"*runs up to Tank and smacks it with a baseball bat* Bonk!" "*Tank turns around, smashes*" :::I'm not entirely sure where they'd put them, exactly. -[[User:Stigma-231|§'tigma-231']] ♠৳hаt i ɯill nəvər escaρełalk][ ] 16:02, 21 March 2009 (UTC) I'd like a knife--TeriffiedToxic(Check out my wikia and help ploz Its (www.darkcrusade.wikia.com)) 12:46, 8 May 2009 (UTC) :Psh, bat's more fun and truer to Valve. -[[User:Stigma-231|§'tigma-231']] ♠৳hаt i ɯill nəvər escaρełalk][ ] 15:17, 8 May 2009 (UTC) To put there?Safe Rooms-I don't know what I would do with it...I mean running around with a pistol and baseball from a tank!I tried mleeing a tank in the back before;and I regret it.--SPARTAN-124 22:04, 21 March 2009 (UTC)SPARTAN-124 Melee weapons would need to have some kind of advantage over pistols, otherwise why would you ever use them? The only use they could possibly have is making your melee attack have a wider radius and do more damage, but switching weapons in the middle of a horde attack is not usually a good idea. They would also promote the kind of gameplay you wouldn't want to see in a game like this. Players would grab a golf club and run through the level swinging at everything, charge into huge groups of zombies without regard, and probably try to go one-on-one with a tank. These are the kinds of players I wouldn't want to see in my game. When you are trying to stay as far away from zombies as possible, giving the players a weapon that forces them to move in close is a bad idea. --MadDawg2552 15:04, 22 March 2009 (UTC) This may be but when you think about it, guns in the game also influence how you fight. The shotgun forces you to be up close for effectivness, and to help out on the battle field. Hunting Rifles force you to stay behind, and be used to watch over other players. Uzi's and AK47's make you stay in the middle, as up close, and as snipers. Adding melee weapons isn't FORCEING anyone to jump into a horde, or fight a tank or ect. That is what the guns are for. Melee weapons just give a wider variety, and give for possibly better gameplay. I could see them doing melee weapons as a bonus unlock with some future update. They could just deal more damage, push back more, or stun longer than pistol whipping. Or perhaps make it easier to stop being downed by something. If you melee while a hunter is jumping at you then perhaps you bat it out of the air and insta kill it (hard to time), or maybe you can break the tongue of a smoker easier. Personally I just wish they make it so if you down a survivor as a Special, you can volunteer to break off the attack. Hate getting pouncing someone and knowing that if I could just break off the attack I would live and cause more damage later. Stoan04 15:54, 31 March 2009 (UTC) As long as they keep it out of Versus, I'm all for it. --Five Dog (talk) 22:23, 8 May 2009 (UTC) People melee enough in the game as it is. I suppose in single player but I wouldn't like to see that at all in versus. Reminds me too much of Oblivion. -Killchain From what Ive seen so far, I dont like the melee weapons...It seems like its turning L4D into a different game. wtf is all this.... its nothing that works in gamer console id think theyd be best for hode moments,were the pistols tend to do jack,useful for assult rifle users,as they tend to run out of ammo most often,but with the addition of new pistols (one being epic,and one probably being atomatic) it's....idk,i'm sure it's going to work--JoeHanSon 22:07, September 8, 2009 (UTC) I just thought of somthing. If u hav a melee weapon, and no pistol, what happens when you get incapped? do you attack with the melee weapon, or your primary, or just lay there, not able to shoot?--Supermutantslayer450 17:32, September 19, 2009 (UTC) I think you whip out a pistol. At least that's what I've heard...I might have seen it too but I dunno. Could be they keep one pistol in their holster, just can't use it. [[User:Jo_The_Marten|'Jo the Marten']]([[User_talk:Jo_The_Marten|'Shriek']]) 21:12, September 19, 2009 (UTC) Hmmmm, maybe. it might be like COD WAW where u can get 2 weapons, but when u get incapped, u pull out a pistol from your ass. ;)--Supermutantslayer450 21:15, September 19, 2009 (UTC) Well the only thing i know my favourite melee weapon will be Electric Guitar. But what i've seen in the beta footages, all melee weapon do an exucution move when they hit special infected. Aratinga A. 16:38, 23 September 2009, (UTC) I have a problem with this melee weapons section (and several pages on melee weapons). Specifically the idea that the melee are not meant to be used against special infected. The melee weapons all go an instant kill against specials exept for the Tank or witch. Also if they did little or no damage to the tank, why is there an achievement to kill a tank with only melee weapons? The melee weapons would be risky to use against a tank, but it could be worth it. It's another case of valve giveing you an opportunity for benefit at some risk. The melee weapon pages say that "it would toake time to get to a smoker, jockey, hunter or charger" but this is just a generalization. I've had countless situations where a teammate has been pinned right next to me and I think these would be extremely valueble. The Deep 1 20:20, October 24, 2009 (UTC) i agree, and it takes time for the spitter's acid to take affect when she dies, so it's good then as well--JoeHanSon 00:27, November 6, 2009 (UTC) Should we mention in the article that you can melee spam with melee weapon primary? Just Some Guy720 08:17, November 18, 2009 (UTC) L4D:2 I noticed in some Beta L4D 2 vids on Youtube, the new melee weapons drop when you switch to another weapon. As in, they are not holstered, they are left on the ground. You* guys do whatever with this info. Some weapons here are not weapons labeled by Valve Technically all the weapons here are weapons that can be used in combat, but Valve doesn't seem to mind that and has only mentioned that there are only 10 weapons in the game, in says there in "About the Game": http://store.steampowered.com/app/500/ If we look into our list, we have 13 (12 without Dual Pistols) weapons. So my guess is these are the only "weapons" labeled officially: Pump Shotgun, Submachine Gun, Assault Rifle, Auto Shotgun, Hunting rifle, Molotov cocktail, Pipe bomb, Minigun, Pistol, Dual Pistols (I wouldn't call it another weapon). Or maybe they meant that the Molotov and the Pipe bomb aren't weapons, leaving the Dual Pistol out of the list since we have the Pistol: Pump Shotgun, Submachine Gun, Assault Rifle, Auto Shotgun, Hunting rifle, Minigun, Pistol, Gas can, Oxygen tank, Propane tank. Any ideas? because I'm lost. xD Knife? I was searching through the sound files in Left 4 Dead, and for some reason, under weapons, there were Knife sound effects that seemed reused from Counter Strike Source. I've never heard these sounds in the game, so I'm wondering if there was a knife as a cut weapon, or if it's just used at some points in the game. :No, there are no melee weapons in Left 4 Dead. However, in Left 4 Dead 2, there are confirmed to be melee weapons. Maybe Valve originally intended to have a knife or some other weapon of that sort in the game, but ultimately cut it out. I blame the play testers. Now, though, it seems as though they're bringing out almost everything they cut in the first game. I can't wait to see it all. -[[User:Stigma-231|§'tigma-231']] ♠oƒ my caliber {τalk}{ } 19:50, 6 July 2009 (UTC) :I know this is an old comment, but the knife sounds are in the game because L4D is based off of Counter-Strike: Source. Darkman 4 06:09, September 8, 2009 (UTC) A knife does exist in the mods of l4d; it can be used against hunters and smokers to get free: '#L4D_Upgrade_knife_description' - you can stab hunter when he pounces you (resulting in hunters death) Project SToPID P. Project Separate That annOying Page Into Different Pages. is a project to stop the random anonymous and new members editing on the classic Left 4 Dead's pages with weapons from Left 4 Dead 2 and to stop common information that could mislead the common reader once s/he reads it regrading the item as they have longer/shorter reloading speed, power, aim and range, trivia, tactics, glitches, and so beyond. What we should consider is one of those options: # Create a new weapon page for each remodeled weapon in Left 4 Dead 2, and leave at the end of the page name (L4D2) and (L4D), for example: Auto Shotgun (L4D2), Pump Shotgun (L4D), at this situation adding the AK-47 would become a problem since it's a assault rifle. # Having each weapon renamed after it's real world name, allowing more various names and consider redirect suggestions at the top of the page like in the cricket bat page. # Both, Combine OverWiki did it too here and here. Something needs to be done before the mass begins, we can't consider adding Left 4 Dead 2 section to every weapon we know as it will just make a mass. The Assault Rifle is already bound to become one messy page after the AK-47 entered it's page. Zikkun 03:22, 24 July 2009 (UTC) :The thing is that we don't know all of the differences between the new weapons and the old ones. Making a new page that would essentially be "The new Hunting Rifle has a tighter crosshair and a 30-round magazine. The end." seems like a waste to me. I want more concrete info before we make a new page, and I think we're only gonna get that info when L4D2 is released. For right now, the information about the new L4D2 weapons should stay on the L4D1 page. We can make the split when L4D2 is released (or a few days before). Darkman 4 03:34, 24 July 2009 (UTC) ::I understand what you're trying to say and I agree, we don't have a lot information I don't want the weapons to become a mass here, we have to clean it up a little or Five Dog will get mad at us. D: Sometimes pages pretty much work like that, a guy comes and makes a small article, another one doesn't see it useful enough and adds information, another one adds a picture, and so and so, that's Wiki for me. Zikkun 04:05, 24 July 2009 (UTC) :::Well, based on my experience as an admin on other wikis, right now I think its fine. Once we start getting more detailed info I think a split would be good. Darkman 4 04:10, 24 July 2009 (UTC) i think the knife sound from couter strike source is used as the infected scratch Grenade Launcher + Jerks = Teamkilling I seen lot of teamkillers with auto shotguns and molotovs and all that stuff. But a Grenade Launcher? This would mean you shouldnt make anyone mad with a grenade launcher. Makes the n00bs go nuts. Player:Ok guys so far so good. n00b:BLAGA BLAAAAAH its a GRENADE LAUNCHER LOSERS! (Fires Grenade launcher at everyone) n00b:HA HA I WON! They should at least make it mounted --Kirby888 21:59, 26 July 2009 (UTC) : i can see that happening. then he gets pounced. 23:03, 28 August 2009 (UTC) L4D1 weapons in L4D2 Here's something interesting a user on the Something Awful fourms posted yesterday: "Talking with one of the Valve people PAX I also learned that the new weapons will be mixed with the old weapons in the new maps. But that the director may favor new to old." I think we need a little more confirmation before we put it into an article, but its still interesting. Darkman 4 06:07, September 8, 2009 (UTC) Regarding the new weapons pages... Is it really ok to provide tactics about using weapons we haven't even been able to test? I mean, sure we have seen footage, but we can't know for certain how they differ from each other until we play the game. Besides, shouldn't they just be merged altogether? AK-47 with SCAR and Assault Rifle for example, after all, they're all the same kind of weapon. DeathBlade182 17:40, October 4, 2009 (UTC) :All of the tactics are ripped from the AR/AS/HR page. I think teh new weapons need new pages, because if you put all of the ARs and the like on one page, then the page would become cluttered very quickly. Darkman 4 17:43, October 4, 2009 (UTC) ::Well, like you said for example, all of the AR pages have the exact same text just copied and pasted, therefore, having individual pages for each AR seems kind of redundant... DeathBlade182 17:54, October 4, 2009 (UTC) New Melee Weapon Anyone think there should be a tire iron as a new melee weapon? I know there won't be any new ones, but any other ideas?--[[User:Supermutantslayer450|'Supermutantslayer']]450 ROAR! 22:33, October 14, 2009 (UTC) :i tink u shuld use book as melle weapons becuz there r a lot of big books in the world :) :| :( ^_^ XD Darkman 4 22:34, October 14, 2009 (UTC) ::i think there should be there a golf club. They own so bad... [[User:Aratinga_A.|Aratinga A.]]Ѭ, 19:48, October 14, 2009 (UTC) I honestly thought they'd have made a shovel as a melee weapon... I mean seriously people are more likely to come across a shovel then they are a katana or a cricket bat.. Regulust 22:56, November 5, 2009 (UTC) Counter strike weapons? Can someone clear this up plz? how do you get the censored version to have counter strike weapons ? can i have both? Those who have the censored version will get more weapons! :Move to Germany. --NovaSilisko 01:20, November 11, 2009 (UTC) Play with someone, who got german version, then u can use the weapons 2, same system like baseball-bat.--DXXXVIII 22:26, November 24, 2009 (UTC) "Fully Loaded Weapons" I noticed how it said that some weapons aren't fully loaded by default when you pick them up from their spawn point. I have played the Left4Dead2 Demo a bunch since its release. And the only time I ever see it mention "Fully Loaded XXXXXXXX" is when the primary weapon has very little ammo, usually less then 1 extra reserve clip. Would like someone to confirm this. Dwarf Ninjas 04:22, October 31, 2009 (UTC) :I've see it too. Only when I'm ''really low on ammo.--AstralShapeShifter 09:41, December 15, 2009 (UTC) Weapons HUD icon where you guys found they? Aratinga A.''Ѭ'' 15:11, November 4, 2009 (UTC) :They can be found inside the .gcf of the Left 4 Dead 2 demo. Adreensherpderp 15:25, November 4, 2009 (UTC) Still without finding them =/ Aratinga A.''Ѭ'' 00:28, November 9, 2009 (UTC) Not GCF. VPK. --NovaSilisko 01:19, November 11, 2009 (UTC) pictures wtd happend to the pictures of the weapon icons in the thing at the bottem?--JoeHanSon 01:07, November 11, 2009 (UTC) Our template guy was working on the Weapons template and didn't put them back in. I'll see if he'll put em back. [[User:Jo_The_Marten|'Jo the Marten'♠]]([[User_talk:Jo_The_Marten|'Shriek']]) 01:16, November 11, 2009 (UTC) :Okay, they've been put back. =) [[User:Jo_The_Marten|'Jo the Marten'♠]]([[User_talk:Jo_The_Marten|'Shriek']]) 01:40, November 11, 2009 (UTC) thank you, i realy enjoyed them, makes them stand out from all the other things--JoeHanSon 03:37, November 11, 2009 (UTC) references for defibrilator and first aid kit Are those necessary? Nobody is going to argue they exist at this point after all right? // Th3Prophetmλη talk 03:21, November 11, 2009 (UTC) Anything you feel is unnecessary, feel free to delete (Chances are, it probably is if you're having doubts about it). And hey, if you make mistakes, they're easily fixed. :D [[User:Jo_The_Marten|'Jo the Marten'♠]]([[User_talk:Jo_The_Marten|'Shriek']]) 03:25, November 11, 2009 (UTC) :Ok, i'll do my best then :) // Th3Prophetmλη talk 03:34, November 11, 2009 (UTC) more weapons we need to add the remaining l4d2 weapons. The full list appears to be (according to l4d2 stats) Secondary * Pistol * Magnum Primary Tier 1 * Uzi * Silenced SMG * Pump Shotgun * Chrome Shotgun * SG552 (There is still no page for this weapon)--DXXXVIII 21:15, November 23, 2009 (UTC) * Scout (There is still no page for this weapon)--DXXXVIII 21:15, November 23, 2009 (UTC) Primary Tier 2 * Tactical Shotgun * Combat Shotgun * Assault Rifle * Desert Rifle * AK-47 * Hunting Rifle * Military Sniper Rifle * AWP (There is still no page for this weapon)--DXXXVIII 21:15, November 23, 2009 (UTC) * MP5NAVY (There is still no page for this weapon)--DXXXVIII 21:15, November 23, 2009 (UTC) Primary Special Tier * Grenade Launcher Extra * Minigun * Heavy Machine Gun Melee * Baseball Bat * Chainsaw * Cricket Bat * Crowbar * Electric Guitar * Fire Axe * Frying Pan * Katana * Machete * Tonfa * Knife (There is still no page for this weapon)--DXXXVIII 21:13, November 23, 2009 (UTC) ZeroNow 14:37, November 18, 2009 (UTC)ZeroNow there not ther because those are only in the german version--SS4FireFox 22:22, November 23, 2009 (UTC) And why theres the Baseball bat inside of the list? Its two only avaible in an special Version (preorder Version). And same like the Baseball bat, everyone can use this weapons, if theres a player on the server, who unlocks these weapons.--DXXXVIII 22:44, November 23, 2009 (UTC) They should at least probably be mentioned in a Behind the Scenes article or Trivia or something similar.--CloudT 07:08, December 2, 2009 (UTC) Best Melee Weapon? A couple of the melee weapon pages mention preformance differences (range, power, hit-detection rays, etc.) Is there any best melee weapon? Do any offer real advantages? Note: Not counting the chainsaw. The Deep 1 21:59, November 26, 2009 (UTC) Katana best Damage per hit Knife best speed thats, what i know--DXXXVIII 22:25, November 26, 2009 (UTC) :Hmm, in my opinion, the Chainsaw do lots of damage. However, if you hit special infected in critical places, all melee weapons count. Aratinga A.''Ѭ'' 22:35, November 26, 2009 (UTC) Exclusive usable items http: For what I've seen until now, some l4d2 campaigns have some exclusive itens. For example, Dead Center's Cola, Dark Carnival's Gnome Chompski and/or Fireworks, Hard Rain's green gas cans and The Parish's Tonfa. In Swamp Fever I didn't notice any exclusive items. Aratinga A.''Ѭ'' 20:48, November 27, 2009 (UTC) You can't use the green cans...i think,what about dead center's yellow cans? --SS4FireFox 06:44, November 29, 2009 (UTC) Learn this The Hunting Rifle is the most accurate weapon in L4D2, it has tighter crosshairs than the Sniper Rifle. The Submachine Gun is more accurate than all of the Assault Rifles. Compare the crosshairs and you will see. Laser Sights Put a Laser Sight on a Hunting Rifle. The crosshairs will not move at all, even if you are running. Now put a Laser Sight on the Sniper Rifle, and notice that it spreads out while running. That is because the Sniper Rifle is less accurate than the Hunting Rifle. Do the same thing with a Submachine Gun and any Assault Rifle. The Submachine gun with a Laser Sight has perfect accuracy, while the Assault Rifles still spread out. Or you could just compare the crosshairs without Laser Sights, the Hunting Rifle's will still be tighter than the Sniper Rifle's and Submachine Gun's will still be tighter than the Assault Rifle's (it has been since L4D1), but it will be a little harder to tell. :Crosshairs are one thing, but have tried to acctualy snipe with the smg? With the hunting rifle, someone needs to do splitscreen tests with that, cause there very simmiler, i for one think the sniper is more accurate, but they could be the same, they are the same scoped in and standing still, but we should test on the run and under attack--SS4FireFox 20:33, December 6, 2009 (UTC) Table This page should really have a table comparing the damage/shot, damage/magazine, and damage/second of the different weapons. It wouldn't be very difficult, and would provide a lot of very useful information. Also, in regards to damage/second values: Do those include reload times? Techercizer [[User_Talk:Techercizer|(say hi)]][[AK-47| (pwnage)]] 20:06, December 12, 2009 (UTC) How do I fix it? I have sean on some movies that your weapon is longer away from you. You can see most of the weps, some like the UZI you can see the whole wep. And you can see your arm to, but for me you can only see the front of the wep. How do I fix this? I have beign looking on Options but can't find it.--DeikO 21:24, December 14, 2009 (UTC) :those are the l4d1 views you're thinking of. They were further from the player's POV, and l4d2's revamped l4d1 weapons(smg, hunting rifle, ect) are (to some) woefully too close. --AstralShapeShifter 09:50, December 15, 2009 (UTC) Piercing We should probably add a field to the information table of each weapon that says if it pierces, and how much. I'm assuming that some weapons only pierce certain numbers of infected; if they don't, then we just need a yes/no field. Techercizer [[User_Talk:Techercizer|(say hi)]][[AK-47| (pwnage)]] 18:08, December 20, 2009 (UTC) Names Alright, I've been thinking (scary I know) that we should maybe change the names of the weapons that have been renamed that were changed for Left 4 Dead 2 (Assualt Rifle to M-16, Auto-shotgun to Tacticle shogun). I'm not super hard-set on the idea, I just want to hear some thoughts. Imperialscouts 21:20, December 20, 2009 (UTC) :I'm personally for making redirects and keeping the original names; that way, everyone will be able to find everything, but we won't be favoring L4D2. I'm uncomfortable with simply renaming everything to its L4D2 variant, because :#We'd have to rewrite any mention of them, all over the wiki, to be consistent. :#Left 4 Dead named them first. :#This is the Left 4 Dead series wiki, not the Left 4 Dead 2 wiki. : Techercizer [[User_Talk:Techercizer|(say hi)]][[AK-47| (pwnage)]] 22:20, December 20, 2009 (UTC) Edit conflict me again, and I'll go tank on you. : I don't think it should be renamed for the L4D2 ones. They appeared in L4D with Assault Rifle, Auto Shotgun, and Hunting Rifle. They should, however, maybe be like this: "The Assault Rifle, also known as M16 Assault Rifle in Left 4 Dead 2, is...". But the page itself should not be renamed.